tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2556965477270279581.post528044866575250188..comments2024-03-25T19:59:20.840-07:00Comments on Cavegirl's Game Stuff: Gosh Darnit Somebody Is Wrong On The InternetCavegirlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03853637517886592288noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2556965477270279581.post-39138016716302267342019-02-12T08:58:28.781-08:002019-02-12T08:58:28.781-08:00Oh hey, it's you! Hi, welcome to my comments s...Oh hey, it's you! Hi, welcome to my comments section!<br />Yeah, the big thing I felt was that I was... misrepresented? taken out of context? I probably wouldn't have gone on a big ol' bloggy rant had there been a comments section on the post to put my thoughts.<br /><br />I do agree that the /style/ of game OSR often shoots for is quite distinct from other games that also call themselves RPGs. I get just as much out of playing in other types of game: I'm very into WoD, play a fair amount of Monsterhearts when I get the chance, and larp a lot. Like a LOT, as much of my gaming is live-action compared to tabletop, tbh.<br />When I run (or play) OSR I'm going for a very particular experience - one that's more about in-the-moment decisions than broad story - and want to drill right down into that type of game rather than being unfocussed. When I'm playing at a vamp larp, on the other hand, I want to wallow in melodrama and angst, and my decision making process (what the forge calls 'stance' I suppose) is very different.<br />Maybe I'm weird, but i actually really enjoy a certain amount of adversarial GMing. A GM who doesn't pull any punches and turns the screws whenever I fuck up makes any victory feel that much sweeter.<br /><br />And lastly, do I try to be transgressive with how I structure games? Yes, although I think 'radical' sums it up a little better? The whole storygames crowd are not the only ones pushing at the basic assumptions of what 'makes' an RPG: plenty of OSR ideas are really quite shocking if all you've played is published by Wizards of the Coast or uses the same assumptions. Like, 'we're ten minutes in and my PC is just *dead*' has come as quite a surprise to players. <br />So long as players know what they're signing up for, I think it's all cool. There are lots of different niches that games can occupy (in terms of approach and structure) and I happen to like this one.<br /><br />But yeah, thanks for your thoughtful response. I'm genuinely super happy to see you weighed in :DCavegirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03853637517886592288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2556965477270279581.post-66666779984409955122019-01-23T21:17:37.553-08:002019-01-23T21:17:37.553-08:00Hi there.
Despite what you call "angry caveg...Hi there.<br /><br />Despite what you call "angry cavegirl noises", I thought this was remarkably civil, especially considering what I said. There's really not much I can even address here, a lot of this post seems to be your way of explaining your sentiments rather than a specific grievance directed at me. If I tried to respond to this piece by piece 90% of that would be me saying "I already know."<br /><br />I definitely owe you and several others an apology for claiming that you "don't like RPGs". That's a ridiculously stupid thing to say to anyone. In my original draft, what I wrote was "I honestly wonder why you're even playing RPGs", but I thought "if I'm gonna be that ruthless, I might as well go all the way". I didn't exactly write this in the best mood and my opinions on gaming philosophies like have lessened in intensity over the past couple of months--so no, I do not actually believe that you don't enjoy RPGs. <br /><br />A more reasonable revision of that statement that more closely reflects my current sentiments would be this: the way you, and others like you, engage with RPGs, seems to me as if you are intentionally trying to be transgressive. I don't see DMing styles like yours as being very compatible with any of the group actives that RPGs commonly model themselves after: group storytelling, roleplaying, tactical combat, etc. While I don't stand by my statement that the OSR doesn't like RPGs, I absolutely *do* stand by my statement that many in the blogosphere are attempting to reverse-engineer the genre into something more palpable to them. This is not an outright bad thing to do, certainly, but the common justifications for this process are incredibly reductive and commonly stem from false premises (which is what I was trying to address by going over the statements SP collected).<br /><br />On last thing, about your examples of play: when I read your post which contained these examples I was actually taken aback by how honest they were. You are completely correct that "other people's games are boring", which is precisely why people on the internet very commonly lie about the games they are a part of. This is exactly why I mentioned your examples--they were so plain and so honest that I knew they had to be genuine. This is something that is striking about your blog posts in general. The way you talk about games is so matter-of-fact, which is incredibly useful to me (and probably many others) because many other OSR blogs straight-up read like advertisements. Saying you don't enjoy these types of games was probably the dumbest thing I've ever said online because if you didn't enjoy them, why would you be this open about the banalities involved? Bavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10611452352877623782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2556965477270279581.post-59836346295032157532019-01-23T01:13:28.413-08:002019-01-23T01:13:28.413-08:00I mean, I don't think modern-era D&D is go...I mean, I don't think modern-era D&D is good at giving well-timed narrative beats and a nicely arcing plot.<br />Systems that do that well *do* exist, mind you. The Mountain Witch is not my normal schtick but I've had fun with it and it sets up a nice little samurai drama, with the moving parts in place to produce all the story beats you'd expect.<br />If, however, you're using 5e or 3.pf or whatever to create a 3-act plot with rising tension, a dramatic climax and resolution, you've gotta fight the system to do that.Cavegirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03853637517886592288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2556965477270279581.post-63652134367251509962019-01-18T18:21:48.213-08:002019-01-18T18:21:48.213-08:00Unknown, I don't want to defend the buffoon co...Unknown, I don't want to defend the buffoon complaining about Emmy's posts - he's just as bad as some kind of stereotypical grognard who's only response to any question is "YOU CANNOT HAVE A MEANINGFUL CAMPAIGN IF STRICT TIME RECORDS ARE NOT KEPT!" He's not as rare though - let's call him the "Settler" as it's a synonym for "Pathfinder" and implies settling for whatever.<br /><br />Is it the job of people that like older games (The job of the OSR is to burn down) to educate these settlers? I hope games outreach isn't anyone's job unless they are getting paid for it - but I do think that classic gaming fans can offer an alternative style to people who enjoy 5E as it is written. The difference is that instead of arguing that the way we play our games is inherently better, more truthful or correct, to have some understanding. There's been a lot of in-group snobbery in the "OSR" and there doesn't need to be. <br /><br />Many people like their escapism to be linear, hit the narrative beats of film and fiction and involve complex tactical combat as the chief locus of play. That's not wrong, it's not not the same as a classic dungeon crawl. Acknowledging that and indicating the ways that classic play has a different ethics of play, design principles and from that mechanics can turn most of these folks into people who at least are interested in classic play - because many of them recognize that their scene based or encounter based adventure design doesn't quite give the risk/reward tension that an exploration game might. Likewise, acknowledging that OD&D and B2 aren't going to give you the careful narrative beats and detailed tactical combats of Pathfinder is worthwhile - because it allows you to look at your game and table and try to think of what can be changed, borrowed or added to inject elements of that other playstyle. Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2556965477270279581.post-14207400857201484812018-12-31T07:49:02.541-08:002018-12-31T07:49:02.541-08:00I think there is a point to be made, Gus, that wit...I think there is a point to be made, Gus, that without setting boundaries on what OSR means, it leads to it just being branding, but I'm not sure that is what is happening here. I, too, noticed the "designated rest zone" that Zak mentioned and I cringed at it. Obviously this brings up it's own problem vis-a-vis gatekeeping. <br /><br />I think the problem in this case isn't necessarily OSRdom not communicating itself well (is it their job, really?) but that the dominant (hegemonic ideology?) of WotC DnD is so different from TSR DnD and many people, this DM in particular, seem to come to the table with so many unquestioned assumptions about how the game is played. He tries to run OSR like you'd run by-the-book 3e-4e-5e and it just doesn't work. <br /><br />We can see the blogger doing Thursdays in Thracia talking about running their game by-the-book (http://badwrong.fun/thursdays-in-thracia-part-0/) so they understand why random encounters are important, for example, even though the majority of their gaming has been more modern like this DM. They played B/X as if it were it's own game and not just a minor deviation from what they are accustomed. And they are having a much better time of it.diregrizzlybearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00170953425513553881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2556965477270279581.post-48815854893209069342018-12-29T14:10:31.386-08:002018-12-29T14:10:31.386-08:00I see a lot of this kind of reaction to the idea o...I see a lot of this kind of reaction to the idea of the "OSR" - it's one of several reasons I've personally stopped using the label OSR and switched to a variety of other labels that indicate what I'm talking about is a play style. <br /><br />I think you are right that the lethality of classical dungeon crawl style play is over sold - at least when one doesn't have an agnostic GM, has players that understand the ethos of play (e.g. they know that they can run away from things, and that some things they meet will be more powerful then them). It's a basic different view about how TTRPGs are played. There's been plenty of bad actors in the OSR community, loudly proclaiming the virtuosity and superiority of OSR play: the risk! and the merciless cold equations of the dice that players conquer only through genius of player skill. It's created quite a reaction - and I'd place this guy in the reactionary camp.<br /><br />I think that the OSR has done a bad job at pointing out how the playstyle is antithetical to combat, and excatly what exploration play entails. I've been trying to do so non-judgmentally a bit lately, extolling the ways that Exploration games function below the level of mechanics - but there are some who really want to play a linear tactical combat game and have trouble viewing tabletop as anything else - just like there are those that think having more complex story elements then the evil priest in B2 is unforgivable railroading.Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2556965477270279581.post-83265750995065632132018-12-28T21:54:06.400-08:002018-12-28T21:54:06.400-08:00The guy is an idiot. COnfirmed! I only suspected t...The guy is an idiot. COnfirmed! I only suspected that he was when he published his review of Blue Medusa, but this new post is proof enough my suspicions were right.<br /><br />He even thinks "anecdote" is synonymous with "story".Jorge Jaramillo Villarruelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09173856214194315781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2556965477270279581.post-15711091748605466262018-12-28T21:53:12.666-08:002018-12-28T21:53:12.666-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jorge Jaramillo Villarruelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09173856214194315781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2556965477270279581.post-67636828850043799062018-12-28T16:48:43.240-08:002018-12-28T16:48:43.240-08:00Thought I was in trouble for a second there. Read...Thought I was in trouble for a second there. Reading the whole post, dude's got a lot of pure non-sequitur arguments and undistributed middle arguments.WrongOnTheInternethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10307593854612561638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2556965477270279581.post-33512073837311480622018-12-28T11:08:12.240-08:002018-12-28T11:08:12.240-08:00The OSR settings/modules I like seem to go against...The OSR settings/modules I like seem to go against the whole "controlling a world" idea. Random tables and dice take a lot of control away. Even the reaction table from basic D&D is a clear example of the DM not fully controlling the world.<br /><br />The strictness of modern WOTC modules seem to go for a more controlled world at the table. Natehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441454902186435952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2556965477270279581.post-81960322074069537562018-12-28T09:15:48.395-08:002018-12-28T09:15:48.395-08:00"Video games and board games are better for e..."Video games and board games are better for emergent gameplay." I feel bad for his players.Dire Grizzly Bearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08314149112290998843noreply@blogger.com